For this assignment, I searched through our first ‘zine and tried to relate the images and concepts from Scott McCloud’s work to the Starbucks discussion.

1. moment to moment “requires very little closure”

Input on the topic, without getting into further detail yet:

Starbucks Coffee Company; love it, hate it, or just don’t are about it. No matter one’s opinion on the company chances are that it will outlast most of us. How do we respond to a corporate giant that is daily causing the demise of many family owned diners around the country? While claiming to be conscious of the environment they are going through thousands of tons of paper products every week. What should we do to combat this Medusa of the coffee world?

Meet me at Starbucks and we’ll talk about it over a cup of coffee. I love their coffee and their restaurant and try to visit 3-4 times a week. Why some may ask, have you given in and welcome the enemy with open arms? No other reason than I love coffee and anyone who makes a good cup. Show me or tell me of a better place to get coffee and by all means I will welcome that establishment with open arms. I welcome your suggestions and encourage them.

I love coffee too. However I'm not a Starbucks patron. Not for any ethical or moral reason, I'm just too cheap and I brew at home. But I did want to add something to your environmental concern. I may be wrong since I don't go there, but don't they allow, or even encourage, customers to bring their own mugs? I just think when it comes to wasting products, paper in particular, the consumer should carry most of the responsibility. I'm actually in favor of the mom and pop places myself, but wouldn't the larger corporations have more means to be green?. Starbucks in particular uses their own coffee and can control the production end of their business. On the other hand, the small places rely on outside manufacturers for their products, and those companies might be the most environmentally "unfriendly" ones out there. In fact they probably are because they would be the cheapest. In my experience (actually I don't have a lot) restaurant owners, successful ones inparticular, tend to be cheap. They have to be, there is just too much competition. As far as where else to get a good cup of coffee, I can't help you there, I stick to my own, and it's barely drinkable:) John S.

Hello. My name is Danielle and I am a Starbucks addict. They do, in fact, encourage bringing your own mugs (I do!) AND.. if memory serves me correctly.. I'll research and get back to you for sure, but Starbucks only buys their coffee beans from companies that pay the farmers above minimum wage. You may not think of the impact of this.. but if you think of how much money Starbucks can pump into a business.. it's incentive to be fair.

Branding mechanisms extend beyond being "green." What about companies that simply "do the right thing" as a way of improving PR? Ben & Jerry's has a brownie ice cream, and it purchases the brownies from inner-city bakeries, which pumps money into those neighborhoods (communities? areas?). I think there isn't enough recognition given to huge corporations.. Yes, I am all for mom and pop stores.. but if you think about it.. REALLY think about it.. Those huge corporations employ a GINORMOUS amount of people. Hats off to big corporations for keeping our economy trucking along, and our citizens employed.

2. action to action “progression”

This reminded me of the discussion/argument gaining momentum…

Starbucks building support:

Hello. My name is Danielle and I am a Starbucks addict. They do, in fact, encourage bringing your own mugs (I do!) AND.. if memory serves me correctly.. I'll research and get back to you for sure, but Starbucks only buys their coffee beans from companies that pay the farmers above minimum wage. You may not think of the impact of this.. but if you think of how much money Starbucks can pump into a business.. it's incentive to be fair.

Branding mechanisms extend beyond being "green." What about companies that simply "do the right thing" as a way of improving PR? Ben & Jerry's has a brownie ice cream, and it purchases the brownies from inner-city bakeries, which pumps money into those neighborhoods (communities? areas?). I think there isn't enough recognition given to huge corporations.. Yes, I am all for mom and pop stores.. but if you think about it.. REALLY think about it.. Those huge corporations employ a GINORMOUS amount of people. Hats off to big corporations for keeping our economy trucking along, and our citizens employed.

Although I am a fairly new customer, I have learned of their positive contributions in the past. First, Starbucks is one of the many emerging companies that attempts to operate using corporate social responsibility. One obvious example of their CSR is their move towards more environmentally-friendly packaging for their products. For instance, I am looking at their large (venti) coffee cup which is composed of 10% post-consumer fiber. Although it is not 100% recycled, it is a start. It is likely that they could purchase much cheaper cups made of less environmentally friendly materials (such as Styrofoam), but at least they are making an effort. In addition, the sleeve for their coffee cups is made of 60% post-consumer fiber (even better). Even such small uses of post-consumer materials could be a big plus if other companies such as McDonald's used similar materials for their coffee cups. Starbucks provides a more detailed look at their commitment to corporate social responsibility on their website: Corporate Social Responsibility The “green movement” can serve as a marketing ploy and also as an example to other corporations. Yes, such “green” efforts do promote the company’s image. However, it is positive attention.

More and more people like purchasing products that are seen as eco-friendly. Such strategic moves are not only seen in Starbucks. One example is BP, British Petroleum, which has changed its meaning of BP to “Beyond Petroleum.” The new leadership in the corporation realizes that petroleum is providing profits in the short-run, but such non-renewable resources have limited existence. The corporation has been contributing millions of dollars to alternative energy research. The corporation hopes to one day leave petroleum behind for an environmentally-friendly energy source. However, it is not possible for corporations to just “jump-in” and grasp a new technology. It takes several years to research, develop, test, market, and institute new technologies. Another example of a company that supports the “green movement” is Ben and Jerry’s, which actually has its roots in corporate social responsibility. The company supports farmers in Vermont by solely using their cows for milk production. Also, the company donates much of its profits to environmental preservation campaigns, fundraisers, and the like.

In addition to showing corporate social responsibility, Starbucks also strives to be a great overall place to work. The organizational culture is tightly-knit, and workers enjoy the many perks provided by their corporation, such as advancement opportunities and flexibility. The organizational culture also supports and encourages volunteer work. While yes they are a capitalistic venture, at least they are doing something (even if it is not great at the time) to promote the “green movement,” corporate social responsibility, and organizational culture. When other companies see the results experienced by companies such as Starbucks, BP, and Ben and Jerry’s, they often imitate behavior.

A pristine example is hybrid automobiles: at first, Toyota was the main provider of hybrid cars in the United States. The demand for such vehicles is evident in their sales, causing companies such as Ford and General Motors to introduce and mass-produce similar automobiles. Finally, many people may have negative views towards Starbucks for various reasons, but the fact is that they are supplying the demand. If consumers did not demand their product, then they would not be in business. If they were not in the industry, many people would be without a job in various parts of the business, including sales reps, distributors, franchise owners, employees, managers, farmers and so on. I have gathered some of the things that I feel make Starbucks a relatively good corporation, or at least not as bad as it is made out to be: ProStarbucks

-Robert Woods

Trey says we have to write at least 200 words, and I’m only at 161, so I have to add some more.

JSiewert- I see your point in not being able to bring yourself to buy the coffee, as it is ridiculously overpriced. But seriously, let’s tap in a little deeper to put this in perspective. Starbucks for me, is a treat. Yes, it’s a treat that I may be remotely addicted to, but, none the less, it is in fact, a treat. Everyone treats themselves to one thing or another.. this is mine. I don’t necessarily think of it as a rip off.. we live in an “on demand” world. Whatever it is that we want, we want it right now. When I want a soy mochalattechinofrappasmoothiatto with low fat milk and splenda, I don’t want to have to milk the cow. I want it now. That’s the world we live in. I don’t think of that money as completely wasted. I just paid for some starving college student/part time barista’s beer at the bar when she gets off work. It’s a cycle.. Maybe that’s silly, but that’s how I see it.

And for the record (everyone who thinks it's so easy to make a pot of coffee..) there are specialty coffees that just aren't offered at Publix.. Some of this stuff you just can't whip up at home. Think of Starbucks, (gentlemen) as a cigar shop. (Work with me here)... If you are a true connoisseur of fine cigars (in most cases), you aren't going to go to the gas station, buy your tobacco and your rolling paper, and make 15 cigars for $2.00. If you are truly in for fine cigars (go see Joe at Central Cigars on Central Ave.) you are going to splurge a bit. For a cigar, dropping $20-$50 is common. Ridiculous to some, but to those who truly bask in the glorious cigar realm.. it's acceptable, completely natural. Why? Not because the cigar lovers have more money than sense (in most cases) but because.. it's simply worth it. That's why.

Danielle

____________________________________

I agree with you Danielle. The price includes a product and service. The only thing Starbucks is guilty of is realizing that there is a market for its products and services, and then filling the niche. I’m not under the Starbucks spell, I just see why they are able to command such prices for coffee. I brew coffee at home, it’s cheaper, but I do not mind spending money on Starbucks coffee here and there. For me, going to Starbucks and spending $5.00 once in a while instead of brewing coffee at home that day is the same as me going to the Sarasota Ale House and spending $10.00 once in a while on a turkey and cheese sandwich that I could have made at home for less than $1.00. I do not think that the Sarasota Ale House is out to rip me off on a sandwich that they are forcing me to eat. It just costs more to eat out. Same thing applies to bars, where the same beer at home costs a fraction of what you just paid. That does not mean that people are going to stop going to bars. You can’t bring the excitement and atmosphere of the bar to your house, just like you can not fully replicate the atmosphere or products or service of Starbucks at your office during lunch. These elements all add to the price premium.

The anti-Starbucks/business argument progressing:

I love coffee too. However I'm not a Starbucks patron. Not for any ethical or moral reason, I'm just too cheap and I brew at home. But I did want to add something to your environmental concern. I may be wrong since I don't go there, but don't they allow, or even encourage, customers to bring their own mugs? I just think when it comes to wasting products, paper in particular, the consumer should carry most of the responsibility. I'm actually in favor of the mom and pop places myself, but wouldn't the larger corporations have more means to be green?. Starbucks in particular uses their own coffee and can control the production end of their business. On the other hand, the small places rely on outside manufacturers for their products, and those companies might be the most environmentally "unfriendly" ones out there. In fact they probably are because they would be the cheapest. In my experience (actually I don't have a lot) restaurant owners, successful ones inparticular, tend to be cheap. They have to be, there is just too much competition. As far as where else to get a good cup of coffee, I can't help you there, I stick to my own, and it's barely drinkable:) John S.

John,

I think you've identified the point at which coffee has transformed from a drug into a status symbol. You use it because it has beneficial properties, or maybe you just enjoy it -- either way, it is a necessary consumable good, which you consume on a regular basis -- therefore, it makes sense that you would want to obtain it as cheaply as possible and that you would acquire a surplus so that it lasts for several days. Some people justify paying higher prices for allegedly higher quality, but I argue that their minds trick them into believing that the quality is higher because they have paid more for it. Otherwise, aren't they just paying more to show that they can pay more? It is financial irresponsibility or is it an attempt to prove self-worth through needless consumption?

I'm going to lay down some Chemistry 2 right here.

1 cup of coffee = 8 ounces of liquid = 1 heaping tablespoon of coffee grounds

12 lqoz cup of Starbucks = $1.70 (? Please correct me.)

6 heaping tablespoons of coffee grounds ~= 0.0625 oz of coffee grounds* => 1 heaping tablespoons = 0.0104 oz = 8 lqoz of coffee / 12 lqoz of Starbucks = 0.0156 oz of Starbucks coffee grounds for $1.70 = $108.97 per ounce of coffee

*My own measurement

Check:

1 oz / .0156 oz of coffee = 64.1 cups of coffee sold in one ounce of coffee ~= 64 X $1.70 = $108.80

So, from once ounce of coffee, from $.622, they make $108.80, which is a 17,500% return. Clearly there are additional costs, such as staffing, property taxes, infrastructure, etc., so this isn't an entirely accurate representation of what a cup of Starbucks costs Starbucks, as compared with what it costs the consumer, but it probably costs them a lot less than $.622/oz given how much they make on mark-up.

Brand Quantity Cost Cost per ounce Source

Maxwell House 22 oz $2.99 $.134 Grocery w/ coupon

Maxwell House 138 oz $38.28 $.277 Amazon.com

Starbucks 16 oz $9.95 $.622 Starbucks' Website

Starbucks 12 lqoz = 0.0156 oz $1.70 $108.80 Starbucks Shop

Their coffee costs 812 times more than yours, or yours costs .123% of what theirs does, however you'd like to look at it.

John Monroe

John M.: I believe this is what they call dropping science on us. Thanks for your numbers-crunching and for admitting that there are other costs involved to making a cup of Joseph. I'm just glad I don't drink the bean. -- Emery

You know, I also thought that condiments are relevant to the topics of prices and superfluous consumption. If you are like me, you probably like about 10 servings of sugar in your coffee, especially if they are those wimpy packets that Starbucks provides, and enough milk to to make it blend in with my skin tone. I also like that they provide natural sugar, not because I like it in my coffee, but be cause I like to eat it. So now you have people like me who use as much milk and sugar as possible and who steal sugar for no apparent reason, effectively adding to the amount that it costs Starbucks for my patronage. So, when they charge their regular customers for an already overpriced cup of coffee, it's not because they can get away with it. Of course, not. They raise their rates for the same reasons that insurance companies, movie theaters and other financial institutions raise prices: because of all of the consumers driving up the overhead costs. I don't believe that, but some people seem to. Anyway, once you are paying those sorts of mark-ups, what's a few more cents? To them, $.01 per customer is an extra $.64 per ounce of coffee, which is greater than the amount that one ounce of their coffee in bulk currently costs.

John Monroe

Ok, so when reading all of this it is quite apparent that A LOT of people like Starbucks. I can honestly say im not a fan. Granted ive been there a couple of times with friends or family becuase they are starbucks fiends, but I dont go there regularly. My reasoning is why drop 5 bucks on a cup of coffee that will last you mayve 20-30 minuets, depending on if you gulp or sip, when you could spend it on some Fulgers or Maxwells and make it yourself. The reason is AMERICANS ARE LAZY. Why would someone take 2 minuets out of their day to brew a cup of coffee when they can just drop in, grab a cup, and pay cash for it? Because people are so damn busy trying to "live the American dream" that they cant stop and take 2 minuets to make a pot of coffee. Which when you think about it doesn't make sense because you stand in line at Starbucks for 15 minuets anyway to get a cup of coffee anyway. When you use the word "fad" and Starbucks in the same sentence people deliver a counter such as "well its been around for ever" well that is becuase it appeals to many different groups of people. For example the young kids hang out there because its the cool thing to do and the old people like it because its a cool place to hang out drink a cup of joe and listen to music, and the middle aged people like it because they can get in and out and get on there way to making there money.

It is all about demand, that is why the big corporations are where they are now because they find a way to sell something. For example the pet rock what the hell?? People actually bought a pet rock...... seriously??? I mean people spent 4 dollars buying rocks, ugly rocks. People could of gone to a local lake or pond and found a nice, cool looking rock for FREE. But they didnt because it was a fad, it was the cool thing to do. Another example is beanie babies.... what a crazy time those were. I mean people were paying ridiculous amounts of money for these things, for example here is site telling you the most expensive beanies sold, ever. The point im trying to make is that large corporations feed off the spend thrifty based economy of the United States and of the entire world. These corporations play like they care, and that they say they want to better the environment, and maybe some do, but for the most part the only thing "green" these corporations care about is the money that is being put into there pockets. If you think about it, why is the Amazon being destroyed, why are numerous amounts of animals being eradicated before they are even discovered, why are there starving people on this planet when there is plenty of food to feed everyone, because people are out to make money and they could careless. Don't get me wrong I shop at Wal-Mart occasionally, and I spend money that feeds these untouchable corporations, but hey who doesn't. Think about it, you might think you dont or you say you dont but look at your belongings and look at your surroundings, everyone feeds these monsters, that is why they are untouchable.

3. subject to subject “reader involvement”

This reminded me of the counter-arguments of the Starbucks discussion and how they have shaped the current wiki page. We had to read each other’s comments to transition.

Starbucks is a company that makes a high quality product and is able to sell it at a price that would persuade people to believe it is a high quality product. It is the wake up juice that a great majority of the country needs to keep the country prosperous. I think that any company that mistreats people for a larger bottom line is wrong. Profit should not be the only driving force behind our motivation. I don’t believe that anybody should defend a corporation in an argument; that is what they have lawyers for. What should be discussed is the human condition. We live in a world today that has enough food and resources to sustain the enormous pressure we exert on it. That means that everybody can be equal and not damage the earth. Time and effort = Money. The formula works. If you want to make lots of money, it is going to cost time and effort. The same goes the other way around. If we are going to take the time and effort to solve the world’s problems, then it is going to take money. Money is something that these large corporations have and could be using to save the earth. Instead, we are left with suffering and grief in the name of profit. If Starbucks is going to do things that hurt the human condition, then they are bad and I will refuse to buy their products. Their coffee isn’t that great anyway. You’ve got to import the good stuff from Ireland.

Ninja

____________________________________

I was chatting with my IM partner, who will remain anonymous unless he or she decides to make him or herself known. I'll be the jackass on my own.. Heaven knows I need no help. Haha.. Anyway, to be frank, we disagree with this Starbucks Bashing.

Please, take no offense to what I'm about to write.

But, let me get this straight... You're going to tell me that Starbucks should take on the campaign to end poverty and promote equality thoughout the world? Why? Because you said so? Who are you to tell Starbucks how to spend it's money, and why don't you start a campaign to end poverty, yourself? Because you don't have the money, or because you dont want the responsibility? I mean let's be real here fellas. Starbucks isn't a giant ogre.. it's a company run by a couple guys, who have a couple of guys who work for them, who have a bazillion people who work for them. PEOPLE. I'm not defending Starbucks, I'm not defending my stand on purchasing their coffee. I have nothing to prove. I'm just saying.. If you're so worried about using the resources to benefit something, then create something, promote something, stand for something. Don't just stand against something, because it makes a lot of money. A LOT of people in America make a LOT of money. How come PEOPLE can't take responsibility?! How much of YOUR paycheck goes to Chad or Darfur, India or even the thousands of people in Louisiana who are STILL homeless from Katrina? Well..?

I'm sorry to come off so brazen, but I don't feel guilty for buying Starbucks. I work hard for my ability to spend my four dollars on a cup of coffee, thank you very much. I guess it's crazy to me that this is even an issue, because as a marketing major.. I think Starbucks is A+. And as Robert so brilliantly stated, they're putting forth an effort. Some kind of effort is better than none. And if you disagree, well.. you're just being narrowminded. What about when Starbucks gives $15,000 to Big Island Charity? Oh, that wasn't enough for you? Well how about when Starbucks brews up charity for Taiwan's aboriginal kids? Need more? Here's one.. Starbucks Pushes Toys, Not Coffee. Are those not good enough?

What's the big idea with everyone jumping on the bashing bandwagon, anyway?! I feel like Rex Grossman here.. It's silly to debate the justification of a $4 cup of coffee.. what about the $40,000-$80,000 vehicles people buy? What do YOU drive? Or the athletes that get a 4 million dollar SIGNING bonus? Oh, here's one.. how about a $50 VIDEO GAME? How many of those are in America's households? Why isn't PlayStation out trying to save the world? How come Starbucks has to? Are you really going to debate what a horrible company Starbucks is because they charge $4 for a cup of coffee?! Gimme a break! What about the hundreds of thousands of people who are in the workforce BECAUSE of Starbucks? Let's be real here, guys. *sigh*

All I'm saying here is, don't throw pet rocks if you live in a glass house. :)

-Danielle

4. scene to scene “significant distances of time and space”

I related this to the original start of the discussion with a newer comment that stands out because it is red. I just feel like some time has occurred since the start of the Starbucks discussion. The original is in black and white, while the newer one has color:

Starbucks Coffee Company; love it, hate it, or just don’t are about it. No matter one’s opinion on the company chances are that it will outlast most of us. How do we respond to a corporate giant that is daily causing the demise of many family owned diners around the country? While claiming to be conscious of the environment they are going through thousands of tons of paper products every week. What should we do to combat this Medusa of the coffee world?

Meet me at Starbucks and we’ll talk about it over a cup of coffee. I love their coffee and their restaurant and try to visit 3-4 times a week. Why some may ask, have you given in and welcome the enemy with open arms? No other reason than I love coffee and anyone who makes a good cup. Show me or tell me of a better place to get coffee and by all means I will welcome that establishment with open arms. I welcome your suggestions and encourage them.

….2 weeks later:

Nevermind it will not let me copy it, but it is the interesting (and emotionally based) segment at the top of the Starbucks wiki page.

5. aspect to aspect “different aspects”

Here I try to reflect the different aspects of the Starbucks discussion…

Like it, or at least do not think Starbucks is out to conquer the world:

I don't think there is any question that coffee from Starbucks is at a premium. I am saying at least they are making some efforts to be socially responsible as far as the environment goes. What is the difference between spending more for a coffee at Starbucks (once in a blue moon or every day) than spending more for a cheeseburger from Chili's instead of going to McDonald's? Is Chili's overtaking the world too because people have a preference for it? I see more Chili's and Applebees in town than Starbucks. They technically sell stuff that resembles other stuff that could be be bought for more or less elsewhere. It does not make one person better or worse than the next person because of their freedom of choice. I doesn't matter to me if Steak n' Shake is selling a $4.00 cheeseburger that could be bought on the $0.99 menu at McDonald's. I do not like McDOnald's and would splurge the extra money to get Steak n' Shake, or not eat at all. Basically, I do not care what or how much someone paid for their coffee as long as A.) they did not steal money from me to buy it B.) they like drinking it C.) they do not spill it on me when it is hot and D.) they drink Starbucks knowing that is was their choice and that Starbucks is not a monopoly because you can brew it at home, buy it at the store, buy it at the gas station, poor a cup at work, go to a diner, stop at the mall kiosk, bum a cup, go to Barney's , and so on.

Why is it that starbucks in such demand? It is true that most people do enjoy a good cup of coffee mostly in the morning but still why? I think that it is convenient but also it has become a hot spot for social gathering. I know for myself and a few of my friends we will all get together at starbucks and just sit and talk. No one there is trying to rush you or push you out the door. There are comfy places to sit and relax. Some people say why not go to someone's house instead. That is nice sometimes but who wants to invite 5 to 20 people to their house all the time. Plus most people want and excuse or anything to get them out of the house even if it is only for an hour or two. If you go there by yourself you can usually mind someone else who is willing to start up a conversation with you especially if they are by themselves. There is definitely a broad spectrum of people that go to starbucks as well. I don't think anyone can say "no only (blank)kinds of people hang out there". The truth is all those fill in the blank groups do as well as many other sorts of people who do not fall into any category. Plus the coffee is expensive but with a much for friends are hanging out together say for two hours and only buy a cup of coffee for $4 then that is pretty cheap entertainment. I mean a two hour movie is going to cost 7 or 8 dollars plus snacks and a drink. If you go there once in awhile instead of everyday it really does not seem so bad. I mean everyone needs to treat themselves once in awhile.

Years ago I used to sit around a "coffee shop" with my friends for hours, we would shoot the breeze maybe get a sandwich, it was called Waffle House. We could sit there all day and drink all the coffee we wanted for about a buck. However, I wouldn't want to study there, and I'm sure the booths were a lot less comfortable than whatever Starbucks has, and whether you wanted it or not, some stranger was definitely going to talk to you. We also didn't have a choice, it was the only coffee shop in town. I guess more the point I'm trying to make is to a certain extent you do get what you pay for. I can see justifying the cost on atmosphere, I'll pay more for a beer or hotdog if I'm at a ball game. -John Siewert

Trey says we have to write at least 200 words, and I’m only at 161, so I have to add some more.

JSiewert- I see your point in not being able to bring yourself to buy the coffee, as it is ridiculously overpriced. But seriously, let’s tap in a little deeper to put this in perspective. Starbucks for me, is a treat. Yes, it’s a treat that I may be remotely addicted to, but, none the less, it is in fact, a treat. Everyone treats themselves to one thing or another.. this is mine. I don’t necessarily think of it as a rip off.. we live in an “on demand” world. Whatever it is that we want, we want it right now. When I want a soy mochalattechinofrappasmoothiatto with low fat milk and splenda, I don’t want to have to milk the cow. I want it now. That’s the world we live in. I don’t think of that money as completely wasted. I just paid for some starving college student/part time barista’s beer at the bar when she gets off work. It’s a cycle.. Maybe that’s silly, but that’s how I see it.

And for the record (everyone who thinks it's so easy to make a pot of coffee..) there are specialty coffees that just aren't offered at Publix.. Some of this stuff you just can't whip up at home. Think of Starbucks, (gentlemen) as a cigar shop. (Work with me here)... If you are a true connoisseur of fine cigars (in most cases), you aren't going to go to the gas station, buy your tobacco and your rolling paper, and make 15 cigars for $2.00. If you are truly in for fine cigars (go see Joe at Central Cigars on Central Ave.) you are going to splurge a bit. For a cigar, dropping $20-$50 is common. Ridiculous to some, but to those who truly bask in the glorious cigar realm.. it's acceptable, completely natural. Why? Not because the cigar lovers have more money than sense (in most cases) but because.. it's simply worth it. That's why.

Danielle

Do not like Starbucks as much:

Starbucks is a company that makes a high quality product and is able to sell it at a price that would persuade people to believe it is a high quality product. It is the wake up juice that a great majority of the country needs to keep the country prosperous. I think that any company that mistreats people for a larger bottom line is wrong. Profit should not be the only driving force behind our motivation. I don’t believe that anybody should defend a corporation in an argument; that is what they have lawyers for. What should be discussed is the human condition. We live in a world today that has enough food and resources to sustain the enormous pressure we exert on it. That means that everybody can be equal and not damage the earth. Time and effort = Money. The formula works. If you want to make lots of money, it is going to cost time and effort. The same goes the other way around. If we are going to take the time and effort to solve the world’s problems, then it is going to take money. Money is something that these large corporations have and could be using to save the earth. Instead, we are left with suffering and grief in the name of profit. If Starbucks is going to do things that hurt the human condition, then they are bad and I will refuse to buy their products. Their coffee isn’t that great anyway. You’ve got to import the good stuff from Ireland.

Ninja

I love coffee too. However I'm not a Starbucks patron. Not for any ethical or moral reason, I'm just too cheap and I brew at home. But I did want to add something to your environmental concern. I may be wrong since I don't go there, but don't they allow, or even encourage, customers to bring their own mugs? I just think when it comes to wasting products, paper in particular, the consumer should carry most of the responsibility. I'm actually in favor of the mom and pop places myself, but wouldn't the larger corporations have more means to be green?. Starbucks in particular uses their own coffee and can control the production end of their business. On the other hand, the small places rely on outside manufacturers for their products, and those companies might be the most environmentally "unfriendly" ones out there. In fact they probably are because they would be the cheapest. In my experience (actually I don't have a lot) restaurant owners, successful ones inparticular, tend to be cheap. They have to be, there is just too much competition. As far as where else to get a good cup of coffee, I can't help you there, I stick to my own, and it's barely drinkable:) John S.

6. non sequitur “no logical relationship”

I have no qualms with this comment, it just does not go for or against Starbucks!:

Peace on Earth and goodwill towards men- JS